I'm quite pickey about what I do to my house. The house was built in the mid 1920s. Back when they really knew how to build houses well and had finally figured out plumbing and electrical systems. No more knob & tube wiring. No lead pipes.
My house has it's original windows but crappy 1960ish aluminum triple track storm windows. The only good thing about the storm windows is they kept the rain off the main windows (along with the large eaves on the house). The storms did little to slow the winter winds. The aluminum conducts the cold nearly as fast as the poor fit, shrunken seals and drain holes would let the air in. Our furnace runs when the wind blows regardless of the temperature in the winter. 30 below f and no wind and the furnace doesn't run. 20 plus F and windy and the furnace runs. Yeah, drafty.
The original wood sash windows are very beautiful in my house. They have a rather unique 5 over 1 glass pattern. Sood sashes are unpainted. They survived the abominal fad of painting all the interior wood work white. Our house has oak floors and lots of very nice wood work inside including picture rails and fake stone arches. The exact species of woods used is not known. It looks like a number of different kinds were used for baseboards, door frames, doors, window frames, sills, etc. it looks to vary even within a single window. I spent a bit of time trying to identify the woods but never came up with anything exact. With over 1000 species I'd need original packaging to be sure. Black Alder was a close match for the sills.
Most replacement window manufactures assume you will be painting windows or you just don't want great looking windows. I stil remember 1 company that had a display at a local home store that used finger joints on all the pieces of wood, 1 right in the middle of the lower sash in plain view. I guess if you paint them, it won't show for a few months. until the paint peals there or the fingers open up due to the damp.
One thing I'm adament about on my house is going back to the original look. But not the hassle of having to change out full wood frame storms with full wood frame screens twice a year. Besides those full length screens do little to protect the sashes from the rain. I found Marvin windows makes a full length wood storm that has a secret: replaceable panels and an inside track for a sliding glass panel. That allows us to open the storm part way. What really hit my wife's fancy was the first stop is just 1" open. Let just a little air in. These will protect the new sashes for decades to come.
Finding replacement windows, or Pocket Replacement Windows in the industry lingo that are slim enough to fit within the 3.5 inches of space was a big problem. Hurd was the only decent window that fits. I did find some cheap vinal pocket windows that skinny but there is now way I'm putting that level of UGliness in my house. The Hurd Sash Kit is 3.5" exactly. And that includes an extra track for an exterior snap in screen. We did not order the screens in favor of the Marvin Storms. And I used a table saw to cut off the extra bit of aluminum track to get extra clearance. I used a fine tooth steel blade on the table saw. Yeah, try finding a proper method of sawing aluminum. I smoothed off the cut edge and painted in a matching enamel to hide the cut.
Installation. I did the work myself. The window salesman said it would be about $250 labor per window and I just figured they would not do the work to my standards. It took me 4 days per window, mostly waiting for stains, varnish, primers and paints to dry.
Day 1:
remove the old storm. Mask the window frame.
I scraped the exterior wood frame to bare wood.
Test fit the Marvin storm. I bought an electric planer to trim the storms to fit. It's the tool for the job and only takes a minute. Money well worth it.
I primed the window frame and the cut strom with Zinser primer (the best i've ever found) (ps, Kilz is pure crapola)
Remove the hardware from the new sashes. Mask all the glass. Sand and stain. Sand and stain the side rails too.
Day 2:
Paint the wood frame. House paint for the sides, exterior oil based enamel for the sill for extra water protection.
Sand the new sashes & side rails. Apply the first coat of polyurethane varnish.
Cut the extra screen rails from the aluminum extensions on the side rails. I used an old fine tooth 7" blade on the table saw. That worked better than the rough cut blade or the abrasive disk. I used a lap disk on the angle grinder to smooth the cut. Painted with an exterior oil based enamel to hide the cut which takes 2 days to dry.
Day 3:
Sand the new sashes to remove the bumps and zits caused by the varnish "Lifting the grain" on the new wood.
Day 4:
remove the old sashes.
I removed the parting strips and cut them so they would fit flush.
I removed the old sash weights and vacuumed out the old injected foam insulation. It had disintegrated over the decades. I stuffed in new fibreglass.
I glued the reduced parting strips in place. They help hold the access doors in and provide a flatter surface for the Hurd side rails.
This is where the Hurd Instillation kicks in. I'll be briefer than their skimpy instructions.
Nail in the side clips (I added a couple beads of caulk first).
(I added more foam where the factory supllied foam is cut too short)
Snap the side rails in to the side clips. (far more difficult to do)
Place the sashes in place. (easier done that explained).
(put a strip of self adhesive foam on the top to seal the top sash) instead of the very difficult to install header strip.
Oh, that's it. That's what they would charge $250 to do. Yeah, 20 minutes of the 4 days work.
Next up was to install the new Marvin Storms. That takes about 5 minutes. I got 2" turn buttons, aka, butterflys to hold the windows. I tossed the screws they came with in favor of 2" long stainless square drive deck screws. They look and fit much better, will hold the storm more securely and the square drive will slow any thief.
Stand back and admire the view.
I ordered 3 windows. I decided to do the 3 on the south side of my house. They are the worst for wear. And I didn't want to shell out $20,000 for windows I might not like. Yeah, about $700 per Hurd sash kit plus $300 per Marvin wood storm combo. Plus the time it would take me to install them. Oh yeah, I'm working half time due to research funding issues for the past year so the bank account is going down instead of up.
Now the problems with Hurd. Okay, their shipping.
I got a call the windows were in. They said they could drop them off. Okay, they did, they put them on my front porch out of sight. Yeah, I didn't see them either. I drove the 12 miles to their show room to pick them up, hum, no windows. Call the guy who delivered them, sure they are there. I drove home again, Yep. They delivered when they said, I just didn't see them. I got 2 windows and 3 rail kits. Each pair of sashes are packaged in cardboard, not boxes. Custom foldable cardboard corner pading but just lots of sheets of cardboard folded over and stapled. Okay, when you sell a product where nearly ever item is a different size, what else can you do. I opened them all up and they looked fine to me. The third window showed up a week later at the showroom. I went and got that one. The lady in the office made a comment about how "it must have been broken, that happens some times and they had to fix it". Well I should have looked more closely when I unboxed it. All I noticed was the extra silicon sealant all over the glass and wood. due to a busy summer and doing other projects I kept putting the window project off. I finally started in september. First window installed okay. I started on the second and started findind damage to the sashes. I sorted the 2 windows out and figured the damaged was the late arrival. Looks like it got dropped at least 3 times. Damage to 3 sides!.
> Bent hinge pins on both sashes. One hinge pin on each side. all 4 bent.
> Numerous dents in the wood.
> 2 dented aluminum clad corners.
> 1 dented top lock.
> 1 6 inch long crack in the side of the lower sash.
The salesman did make a trip to my house to inspect the damage. He told me the 30 days were passed for him to make a claim with the shipper. Well, is that my problem? He did say he would ask for a new lower sash and would order me new hinge pins. I since steamed out the dents, glued the crack, stained & varnished and installed the damaged window. Cold weather is coming and I wanted to get this project done. Changing out the sashes is trival, it's the stain & varnish that takes time. Been 10 days and no word back from the dealer.
I tried to undbend the hinge pins. The worst just snaped. The dealer called them "Pot Metal", an old time term that means any metals they can throw in a pot and melt. Steel would be a poor choice, IMO, due to it likely rusting up. Hurd could use a better grade of aluminum. The bicycle industry has lots of experince there. Turns out Hurd has at least 3 different hinge pin designs.
Hurd Design Issues.
1: top seal. Ugh, nearly, no, totally impossible to install correctly. I used self adhesive foam strips instead. Far easier to install, should do a much better job of insulation. $5 for a roll at Menards.
2: the side rails that snap in to the clips. I used a lead shot filled plastic mallet with a pounding block to get them in place. I had considered making a huge reverse press to squeeze both sides in to place. The pounding caused the exterior aluminum track to fall off every time. I reapplied those with caulk. Well see if that holds better. The factory method appears to be to crimp the aluminum tracks on with feeble crimps.
Hurd plusses:
Pretty well made sashes. Their wider selection of woods and their thinner sashes are what sold me. They are much heavier than what I removed, okay double glass, wood that isn't 85 years dried out and rotted.
They did the custom 5 over 1 pattern that our current sashes have.
Nice hardware.
Good bottom seal.
Good overlapping seal where the 2 sashes join.
Minimal reduced glass size.
They slide up and down quite nicely.
New for 2011, the side rails have matching wood covers to hide the plastic.
Hurd Minuses:
They have no option to stain and varnish. Some companies do. Pella made up samples for me to match with. Nice. To bad they didn't make a window that fit my criteria. They would be my choice for new construction.
The side rails and clips are pretty mickey mouse. Sure they should work to fit any old misalligned window frame but they could do better.
The top seal is just awful. They could use the same seal they use on the bottom.
Reduced glass. By this I mean how much glass area do you loose when going with replacement windows. Yes you lose some but there are huge differences between brands. Hurd was about the best in this.
Why not just go with new sashes? Well I wanted better draft control. Just replacing the sashes gets you the same old fashioned non-existant seal around the sash. Plus try finding new sashes that match the dimesions exactly but with double pane glass. Also, we wanted to get rid of the sticks I cut to support the sashes at various heights. The original sash weight ropes were cut when they injected foam in the sash weight pockets. Those awful press in springs that were suppose to hold the sashes in place were a disaster.
Other brands I looked at and passed on.
Anderson
Pella
CrestLine
JenWeld
PeachTree
I've read several times that modern windows are good for 7 to 15 years. WTF? I shopped for 7 years. My old widows are 85 years old and still going. Okay they are due for replacement but I think new windows should last more than 15 years. I've read hundreds of complaints about every brand of window. Most seem to be related to the seals failing. And all complaints are from homeowners who did not install the windows themselves, or do much home work either. Does looking for a long time help? Well see.
Insert photos here:
.. dented lock
.. dents in wood
.. crack in wood
.. bent corners
.. bent sash seal
.. aren't they gorgeous
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